I'm confused by this. Where/how was the withdrawn support announced? https://blog.centos.org/2021/11/announcing-the-latest-release-of-centos-linux-8-2111/ announces 8.5, but it confirms the EOL is at the end of the year as expected. This was approved by the board in https://blog.centos.org/2021/07/centos-board-of-directors-minutes-2021-07-14/ and the discussion there confirmed that zero-day updates would have been included as well, regardless of when 8.5 would land.

I would be glad to continue the building updates until 12/31 as would Carl George. Here is the link:

https://centos.org/centos-linux-eol/

But this is something the board needs to clarify.

This ticket was sparked by a conversation in libre.chat IRC #dentos-devel which goes like:

[14:09:49] <hrw> as someone mentioned to me - CentOS 8.5 gets released now and gets 6 weeks of support. right?
[14:12:25] <TrevorH> @c8eol
[14:12:27] <centbot> CentOS Linux 8 will go EOL on 31 Dec, 2021 -- in 6 weeks, 2 days, 9 hours, 47 minutes, and 35 seconds
[14:17:07] <hrw> just asking
[14:37:43] <arrfab> hrw: well, read this instead : https://www.centos.org/centos-linux-eol/
[14:39:20] <hrw> ok
[14:40:27] <bleve> hrw: does centos have support?
[14:41:08] <hrw> bleve: that's question I do not feel competent to answer
[14:41:38] <bleve> hrw: You should know that there is no official support.
[14:48:08] <wolfy> but you can benefit from the release with the shortest life ever
[14:50:26] <hrw> yeah
[14:53:10] <hughesjr> the current rules are we will only release items with a VCSS v3 score of 9 or greater after the zero day updates are released
[14:53:40] <hughesjr> the zero day updates compose and release will happen today
[14:53:51] <hughesjr> (per arrfab's link)
[14:54:38] <hughesjr> NO ONE SHOULD BE USING CentOS Linux 8 for anything important at this point
[14:54:56] <hughesjr> or you should be plnning how to move off it ASAP
[14:55:49] <hughesjr> I would recommend trying CentOS Stream 8 .. others will reommend Alma or Rocky or even Oracle.
[14:56:16] <hughesjr> do what you feel comfortable with .. but make plans and do something :D
[14:56:31] <hughesjr> besides remaining on c8l
[14:59:31] <hughesjr> https://www.centos.org/centos-stream/ <== shows how to upgrade from c8-linux to c8-stream
[15:00:19] <hughesjr> you will also want to move to epel-next with epel-next-release
[15:00:30] <hughesjr> instead of normal epel
[15:00:55] <hrw> We use stream8 already in kolla images
[15:03:03] <carlwgeorge> hughesjr: not instead of, they're used together
[15:03:39] <hughesjr> ah
[15:03:46] <hughesjr> my bad carlwgeorge :)
[15:03:50] <carlwgeorge> https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/epel/epel-about-next/
[15:03:55] <hughesjr> I would have ffigured that out later today :)
[15:04:16] <carlwgeorge> I'll add another faq item, people mix that part up a lot
[15:04:21] <hughesjr> when i switch my main workstation over
[15:08:40] <TrevorH> hughesjr: those rules were meant to cover an exception that would be required if 7.5 was not released until after Jan 1st. The actual text above it says it is supported (as far as that goes) until Dec 31st 2021.
[15:08:45] <TrevorH> 8.5
[15:09:19] <hughesjr> TrevorH: i can only do what i am told
[15:09:52] <hughesjr> as has been made perfectly clear to me
[15:09:54] <TrevorH> first paragraph: CentOS Linux 8 will reach End Of Life (EOL) on December 31st, 2021. Here’s what that means.
[15:10:04] <TrevorH> it's not December 31st
[15:10:18] <hughesjr> tell the board in the issue tracker

Thanks for the additional context @trevorh . It seems reasonable to me to continue building updates till the end of the year, as that's when the EOL actually happens. That was my expectation from previous discussions as well, though I can see how a narrow interpretation of https://www.centos.org/centos-linux-eol/ could read otherwise. @alphacc can we add this to the agenda for the next meeting please?

As one of the two people that routinely build and release the CentOS Linux 8 updates (the other being @hughesjr of course), I would prefer for things to be business as usual right up until the EOL date. My initial interpretation of the EOL plan matched @trevorh's, which is that the "release + zero days only" plan was only for the situation where doing the 8.5 rebuild took longer than the EOL date. Since we've released 8.5 before the EOL date, it should be business as usual. Instead, we are being instructed to follow the exact letter of the EOL plan, which would mean halting CentOS Linux 8 updates over 6 weeks early. This is unacceptable to me.

I would like the board to explicitly state that me and @hughesjr are allowed to build and release CentOS Linux 8 updates between now and the EOL date.

As one of the two people that routinely build and release the CentOS Linux 8 updates (the other being @hughesjr of course), I would prefer for things to be business as usual right up until the EOL date. My initial interpretation of the EOL plan matched @trevorh's, which is that the "release + zero days only" plan was only for the situation where doing the 8.5 rebuild took longer than the EOL date. Since we've released 8.5 before the EOL date, it should be business as usual. Instead, we are being instructed to follow the exact letter of the EOL plan, which would mean halting CentOS Linux 8 updates over 6 weeks early. This is unacceptable to me.
I would like the board to explicitly state that me and @hughesjr are allowed to build and release CentOS Linux 8 updates between now and the EOL date.

Carl, This was also my understanding. IF we could not get done by 12/31, we would be allowed to continue. If we did finish before, we continue as usual until 12/31. That is also my preference. And what I thought a 12/31 EOL meant.

That is also my understanding: 8.5 and 0 days were released before december 31st 2021, thus updates are expected to be pushed until 12/31.

That is also my understanding. In a way the main content of that page became a moot point because 8.5 was released before the EOL. I feel that reference to that page should not have been in the announcement. ;)

That was my understanding as well. As an "ignorant" CentOS person, I'd be pretty miffed if the deal was changed again after all the crap we all went through last year.

This seems to have the potential of asking people to work during dedicated time off and over the holidays. The Board extended the archival of CentOS Linux 8 to Vault under the premise that CentOS users wouldn't be working over the holidays and might need time to finish up migration after the new year. As a Board member, I cannot in good conscience ask people to spend time working on updates during the holidays, particularly when we're already cognizant of the fact that most people won't be around to consume them and the entire release is going EOL at the end of the year. That seems to be beyond what the Board can dictate.

That aside, I can understand the desire to adhere strictly to the EOL date. However, CentOS Linux 8 users must realize any work on it at this point is essentially wasted. They would be better off spending time migrating to whatever they are going to migrate to. Providing updates after the 8.5 release isn't doing them a service. It's providing false comfort while they approach the cliff they're about to go over.

I definitely agree that the Board cannot dictate that people should be working over the holidays, but that's not what's being discussed here. The question is whether people are allowed to push updates between now and Dec 31 -- which, to me, seems a resounding "yes" from past discussions, board minutes, etc.

I'll point out that this is not "changing the deal", we must make sure that the 8.5 update behavior adheres to a strict reading of the EOL announcement (and any forthcoming clarifications). The announcement currently gives very clear criteria under which we should release such updates.

Everything I can dig up regarding this decision says the same thing: updates for CentOS Linux 8 should until until the end of 2021.

Asking if it's allowed runs the risk of setting an expectation in the community that it will happen. That expectation is going to put pressure on people to do the work. Permission to deliver updates and actually delivering updates seem to be inextricably linked.

If we, as a Board, want to make a clear statement that it's allowed to release updates but we cannot promise they will happen, fine. I am not aware of anything that would prevent theoretical updates from being released up to December 31, 2021. That seems like a very confusing message to actually get across though, and doesn't disambiguate the situation at all.

When we announced the EOL date last year, the exact wording was:

CentOS Linux 8, as a rebuild of RHEL 8, will end at the end of 2021.

The linked FAQ reiterates this:

Updates for the CentOS Linux 8 distribution continue until the end of 2021; users can choose to switch over directly to CentOS Stream 8

And of course, the link in the OP agrees. The EOL timing seems abundantly clear. Holidays aside, this is the information we ourselves published.

If we, as a Board, want to make a clear statement that it's allowed to release updates but we cannot promise they will happen, fine. I am not aware of anything that would prevent theoretical updates from being released up to December 31, 2021. That seems like a very confusing message to actually get across though, and doesn't disambiguate the situation at all.

The Board as an institution doesn't do any technical work. The Board also cannot compel anyone to do work that they don't want to do. From reading this ticket, it is pretty clear this is work that Carl and Johnny want to do, and they're just asking for confirmation from the Board whether they're allowed to, which the published record and everybody here agrees they are.

If we, as a Board, want to make a clear statement that it's allowed to release updates but we cannot promise they will happen, fine. I am not aware of anything that would prevent theoretical updates from being released up to December 31, 2021. That seems like a very confusing message to actually get across though, and doesn't disambiguate the situation at all.

The Board as an institution doesn't do any technical work. The Board also cannot compel anyone to do work that they don't want to do. From reading this ticket, it is pretty clear this is work that Carl and Johnny want to do, and they're just asking for confirmation from the Board whether they're allowed to, which the published record and everybody here agrees they are.

I haven't seen anyone volunteer to produce updates. I've seen people ask for blanket permission to allow updates to happen. You may think I'm being overly pedantic, but I'm trying to create a clear statement the Board can stand behind so that the community doesn't assume things will happen.

If someone wants to publicly volunteer to do updates over what is normally time off, that would likely end my concern. I refuse to ask anyone to do so as a Board member and I refuse to let the community be left in the dark as to what "permission" means. The fact that this ticket was opened to begin with already speaks to the ambiguity that is being created.

I publicly volunteer to build c8 updates the same way we always have up until 2021-12-31. That means build and ship updates during my work hours and having the choice to do it on weekends and holidays if I so choose, with no SLA on how quickly those updates will happen. That is what I meant when I said "business as usual" in my previous comment.

Thank you for the clarity @carlwgeorge . I will personally worry about your well being anyway, but I think it removes my concern at the Board level.

I publicly volunteer to build c8 updates the same way we always have up until 2021-12-31. That means build and ship updates during my work hours and having the choice to do it on weekends and holidays if I so choose, with no SLA on how quickly those updates will happen. That is what I meant when I said "business as usual" in my previous comment.

As do I carl. Note: I have built 95% of all updates and signed them for all of CentOS Linux for at least 16 years. For all but the last 10, I volunteered my time exclusively to do this/ I would continue to do so as long humanly possible, paid or not, to keep CentOS Linux alive. As that is not an option .. I will do it until 12/31 with no problem at all.

I volunteer to QA and do any other sysadmin work to get this done.

Here is a draft summary where I believe we have landed:

"The CentOS Board agrees that any potential updates to CentOS Linux 8 before the EOL date can be built and delivered. The EOL process as described in the already published https://centos.org/centos-linux-eol/ will be followed after December 31, 2021.

The CentOS Board encourages any and all users to migrate their existing CentOS Linux 8 systems to CentOS Stream 8."

That message looks great to me. :wine_glass:

Seeing no further comment, I am resolving this issue as solved.